ANDREW:
Hey, guys. This is Andrew. I’m here today with Nick Malik from… Nick, what is the name of your company, actually?
NICK:
It’s Ownthegram which is Instagram-related. As soon as you hear Ownthegram, you know it’s Instagram-related.
ANDREW:
So, Nick has been like 23, I mean runs a highly successful marketing agency. He’s in about a few… not even like long ago, like you’ve started on your own. You have like 7 sales rep jobs. Found that he didn’t find his love in any of these types of things. And, then he would just come home after night working like three or four in the morning basically hammering it, and then decided that…
He started doing stuff with app installs with Instagram and took that to a level, found that pretty good, and then, he also went into… He started reaching out to local businesses in England there. And, from there, he started building, and building, and started dropping out the app install type of things. Now, he’s kind of running about 30 different clients, I guess is what your last is kind of what I’ve taken. And then, you’ve got your stuff like over a million followers doing stuff. So, he’s a really down-to-earth guy, giving lots of knowledge, and so, you know, Nick, fill me in on things that I missed and kind of stuff like that.
NICK:
Sure, I mean, first of all, it sounds great when someone else is talking about you like that. Thank you. So, I was in and out of a lot of sales jobs from the age of 18 to 22. I’m about 23 now. And, I always knew that I didn’t want to sort of do the nine-to-five rat race for 40 years and then retire. I’ve always been sort of an entrepreneur so you’re right. I started with app installs on Instagram. So, I’m reading a lot of forums of like how to make money on Instagram and a lot of people are doing these app installs which I’m sure you’ve probably seen the apps advertised on TV. T
They’re getting big names in to advertise them. They’re normally free apps and games to download. And then, there’s normally incentivized real-life purchases like coins and gems. What a lot of people don’t realize is that these apps are actually promoted by the app creators and they pay people who promote them. So, I was using Instagram so basically reached a huge audience and promote these apps. But, you know, it’s not a very fulfilling work and I didn’t feel any more fulfilled than when I was working sales jobs for someone else. So, I used the skills that I learned in selling apps online if you like to build proper audiences for clients. And yeah, I just reached out to some local companies here in Norwich where I am in the United Kingdom.
It starts it from there. Once I had a few companies, I just pushed some referrals, find different ways to actually onboard more clients. And, a lot of doors start to open when you’re working with these businesses, you know, there are other things that they need. I sort of realize where the pain points are for a lot of businesses and yeah, it just went from there.
ANDREW:
Right, so, that’s a really cool journey. And, in terms of your businesses that you worked with, do you also work with online brands? I’m assuming the local kinds of businesses as well. I mean, do you find more fulfilling than the other?
NICK:
If I’m going to be completely honest I actually find the online, purely online, e-commerce businesses, much more fulfilling to work with. I find, as far as it sounds, I find local businesses always expect a lot for small amounts, small budget if you’d like, you know. They want the bulk, but they don’t want to pay for any of it, whereas, online businesses, they’re aware of benefits that you could provide. They’re more open to that sort of discussion and they’re usually easier to communicate with. You know, they have a very good line of communication which can always hit up. So, that’s probably something that I’ve taken away for the last 6 months that if I could choose I’d work with purely online e-commerce businesses or just online service businesses wherever it may be.
ANDREW:
Sure. Sure. Yeah, so today, I think we’re going to cover because it’s kind of one of these topics that I think a lot of people kind of had is, you know, how do you monetize your followers? I mean, there are 2 factors. One is you got to get followers. And then, once you do find those followers, how do you monetize them? What’s the right way to go about them, not looking too pushy, not looking too salesy because obviously, Instagram is kind of one of these, you know, showy kind of platforms, you know, monetizing them and not pissing your followers off is a kind of a tricky kind of things? And so, I think you know we’ve gotten a lot of questions about that kind of stuff. And so, you know, maybe you can go deeper dive into that whole process and you know, the process and how to do it so we can help some of these guys out on our channels.
NICK:
That was a really well question because it isn’t as easy, you know, just posting a picture of a product and saying, you know, buy this or for sale, which a lot of businesses, I think, are of the impression that that is the way to do it. You know, these people are following you and they want to see your products and they want to just buy from you, which is not the case. People don’t go on Instagram looking to buy things. They’re just looking to pass the time, or you know, be stimulated in some sense.
What a lot of people get mixed up is feed. The feed is what most people see when they land on people’s profiles, and I, generally, with my clients, I tend to keep that as less salesy and probably as I can. I own post that is relevant to the business. Normally, I will look for better or bigger pages who are doing very well and look at this top concept that they are posting and try to mimic that for this business if you like. But, when it comes to monetization, really, is stories and the direct messages. So, stories are a great, great way to connect personally with the followers.
You probably know that a lot of the followers don’t actually see the posts that pages are pushing out. So, normally what happens is Instagram will take your post and show it to about 10% of your followers and based on how they react, it will show it on more of your followers or less or kill the post if you like. So, posting goods up and which isn’t salesy, you never want to catch them to be salesy, even if you are posting a picture of your product.
You want to keep it informative and valuable because even based on how long they’re looking at the photo is very important. If they read a salesy post, they’re going to go on to something else. They’re going to look for something else and that post isn’t going to reach anyone. So, you really well put together stories because stories now, you can do a swipe up, you can have music, you can ask questions, you can really frame people how you want to put them. So, asking them a question, showing them how to solve a problem, and then linking to your product with a swipe with a call-to-action, swipe up to see more, not pushing it as like buying this, but just showing the problem, showing them a solution, and then asking them to swipe up to find out more is a great way for products or services, or you know, that all sort of business.
A great example with one of my personal trainer clients, his feed is full of really great like bodybuilding, and things that people want to follow him for, raise stories are then to connect more with his audience. So, he’ll be talking to them every day asking them questions, finding out stuff about them just to connect with them, and so the trust him. And then, he’ll offer like a free e-book too, you know, 5 Ways of Building Mass or something like that. Then, the free e-book is part of like a value ladder if you like. So, it’s free to get them in and that will be linked into something slightly bigger like a consultation call or free consultation call even which then lead to something slightly bigger like diet plan or nutrition plan which then leads into something slightly bigger, which, you know, personal training, online personal training, training plans. And, not just trying to milk your follower’s straightaway is a great way.
They’re real people. They have feelings. And, you connect with them before you can take the money out of them if you’d like. Better really and build that trust.
ANDREW:
I think one of the key things here is like monetizing. And, when you’re trying to monetize your followers, if you are, I guess, if you’re strictly like me, for the physical trainer, you know, I can see that working really well. So, in terms of their stories on that side of things, you know, do you tell him he should create his content and put that up? Or, like, how do they know what to do? I’m going to be like more of physical products type of thing, not just also services.
NICK:
With physical products, there’s a really good… if you’re familiar with the headshot niche like that, smoking, and that sort of thing, one of my biggest clients, though, is a head job. And, I’ve really helped him with his online sales through Instagram. Perhaps, the right of thing would be to locate a pain point for that audience.
I’ll try to take an example. Let’s say a grinder, that sort of thing, would be to locate and sort of show people issues that they’re having with that. Then, do like a nice, you know, you can use these polls, “yes” and “no.” Do you have an issue on this? And, this just gets people to think. I’m just actually realizing that they do have this issue. Then, we go show them a video that solves that problem. And then, actually, what I do is I create the content, so I will do a little 10 second, 15-second story video with rising appearing on it, and a call to action like swipe up. And, that just takes them to the page.
If they ever want to say, like, “Buy this”, as long as you’ve added a value, you’ve done the correct steps, they will make that decision to purchase. But, it depends on the niche really. And, you better test with your audience because you can ask questions now, open-ended questions to find out what people are wanting to do or wanting to find out. But, yeah, I mean, researching audience, finding the pain point, and then, articulating a good series of stories to really frame people in the mindset that I want to fix this problem, and just giving them something simple.
ANDREW:
Right. So, on the story side, things when you’re doing those, is it like a series? Are you doing it for the whole week kind of thing or is it just a one-off type of story. Like, how, are you kind of doing that for clients?
NICK:
Yeah, that’s a great question. So, depending on the objective, if you can do it over time and you can really frame people correctly over a series of a week. So, make them think in a certain way, and just add value may be for a certain product in mind that you’re going to push in at the end of the week. If you can have a build-up of six days, so, well wanting to look at this story each time, you’re giving them some value. And then, when you try to bring in the product on whatever it is, after this series that you build up, then, they’ve got no qualms about swiping up.
They trust you. They want to know more about this. And, it’s all about trust on Instagram because there are so many cowboys and there are so many people who are just trying to make money definitely. As long as people trust you, and they can see the value you’re providing, they’re going to give you that chance.
ANDREW:
And then, in terms of like when you’re doing this like, so, as you’re building this trust towards getting them to monetize, I mean, the post that your kind of doing, are they long copy inside of things? I mean, what do these typically like resemble in terms of opposed to build that trust and then triangulate in for monetization?
NICK:
Sure. I mean, it really depends on the audience. People connect with people. So, if you can, even just talking to people, having your face there and saying something, then leading into a video about the product, you know, it really depends. There’s no set answer with that question on a niche. But, you always want to just add as much value as possible. So, I would always suggest, you know, a few stories in a row before having any sort of call to action. You don’t just want to…
People like to click through things. So, if you can keep them clicking five or six times, and then, swipe up. It’s much more likely than if you just put one story, swipe up to see this, you know, most sorts of value added there. It’s harder to add value in one story because you know you’ve got a look at this like an ad or a TV ad. You know, this 30 second or however long, we want to put as much value as you can before asking them to take that plunge of taking the action, or whatever it may be.
ANDREW:
So, it’s the build-up to the final climax of getting to monetize pretty much.
NICK:
Yeah. Yeah. That’s a pretty good way to put it. Yes, it’s like that. Yeah, go ahead.
ANDREW:
So, have you… with your clients that you’re dealing, do you find that the video or the still pictures work better for getting engagement?
NICK:
I’ve always thought videos, personally. Photos are great on the feed, you know, their aesthetic. But, in the stories, the fact that you can do 15-second videos really needs to be taken advantage of that. I’ve always found they’ve worked better with people, you know, some things that are moving, they’re more likely to give that attention to it. Whereas, if it’s just a picture, they’ll absorb it in a second and they click straight through.
If there’s a video, and you’ve got 15-second video limits on stories, if you’ve got 4 in a row, then you’re actually getting their attention for a minute straight. And then, when you do something, right then and there, they’re engaged already. They’re looking at you. They’re looking at that video. You’ve caught their attention there.
ANDREW:
Humans are kind of like cats with the laser pointer, actually, go with that swiping at it.
NICK:
That’s true. That’s some psychology, especially on Instagram. If you’re not adding any value, they’ve got no problem just skipping to someone else’s.
ANDREW:
Are you seeing anything like the Instagram TV type stuff? Have you played around with that in terms of engagement and monetization?
NICK:
Very interesting. I’ve actually, just recently started one of my long-time clients on IGTV. It’s a bit strange because the natural engagement and reach people can’t find things very easily on IGTV. A lot of people aren’t using IGTV. I actually did a poll on a lot of my client’s accounts, Instagram stories, do you use IGTV or do you watch anything on IGTV? And, the majority is no. So, I think there still ways to go before it’s really worth putting the time in. But, I personally think that now is the great time to start learning how to use this. Start learning what works well.
You can really push views from your stories straight, no swipe up, to watch this on IGTV. Using these different methods that you’ve got pushed people over there because they’ve got up to one hour, I think, it’s up to 1-hour videos.
ANDREW:
I think it’s going to be like the news leads, you know, where you see “A Boy Gets Killed at Ten”, “Check-in How,” or whatever. And then, you’re like, what? And then, you swipe up to go see it. And then, that leads to more explanation of what that is.
NICK:
Hundred percent. So, you can do little teasers in the story, you know, just the best of it at the IGTV video. And, you know, make them want to find out more. Put a really appealing video in and just swipe up to watch the rest of the episode. Or, find out what happens in next.
ANDREW:
I guess you can even do it like, you know, put a discount or the promotion in the long video. And then, they have to watch to kind of get that special deal.
NICK:
Well, incentive, they have to watch this to get something, you’re giving some value. So, what I think about all this, especially on Instagram, everything I’ve learned is about adding value to people because you give them something that’s valuable to them, you know, they’re willing to trust you and eventually pay you or get some sort of rewards.
ANDREW:
Yeah. Do you find that the channel, like Instagram, with some of your clients, maybe they’re working on, you know, doing Facebook ads or doing Instagram ads, or Instagram posts, in terms of the ROI, do you find that the monetization on Instagram is higher than Facebook or Google Ads, or anything like that?
NICK:
Very interesting. It depends if you’re talking about paid or organic. I think, organically, Facebook is very tricky now unless you’ve got super… Then, it’s kind of a pay-to-play platform. It depends on the business. Google Ad Words is great for certain local businesses where people are researching locally. Instagram, for e-commerce, I think is really hot, really hot right now. Products you can make such attractive videos and photos of products that, you know, looks like someone really professional has put together when it’s just you and your phone. But, as far as organically goes, I think Instagram is definitely the best now to reach huge…
There are so many options. Another thing that I want to mention is sliding in people’s DMs, sliding in your followers DMs. It’s so personal and I think, well, you know, this business or this person is actually messaging me and that can just add so much trust. So, what I do for a lot of my clients is any new followers, I’ll send them an introductory message. They can just walk in themselves to the page or promoting something, you know, like a discount code or whatever the newest thing is.
ANDREW:
So, that’s interesting. So, how does that work? So, somebody follows, a new follower follows that page and then you directly DM them about say, “Hey, thanks for taking the time to follow us and, you know, if you need anything, here’s a discount code to X.
NICK:
Yeah, pretty much that. I’ll say, “Hey, thank you so much for being a follower. I really value you appreciating our page.” You know, something like that. Whatever you want to push, so, you can just leave it as a very friendly, you know, if there’s anything we could help you with, please give us a message.
That just looks, that’s great if somebody follows a business or potential shop, or whatever it may be. Or, yeah, for one of my e-commerce, I actually offered a discount code, so, I say, “I have a special promotion for 10% off everything on our website, just use the code blah blah blah.” And yeah, it’s also great because they see who actually has come from the division of new followers, which come from the DMs, use that code online. So, it’s so trackable and it adds a personal touch sliding in people’s DMs. It breaks that first barrier of business-to-consumer, you know, you sort of got that relationship already.
ANDREW:
Yeah, yeah. That’s pretty awesome, I mean, that’s a super trick there, guys, I never thought about welcoming people, coming on an Instagram kind of feed, which makes that warm, fuzzy, somebody really is not a robot, a machine.
NICK:
Exactly. You know, it’s not just a page, it’s not just pictured, there’s actually someone behind it talking to you. I even say to push, you know, YouTube videos or any sort of, you know, you just got to look at it as a source of traffic. You can push anything forward for any business really. Just break that first barrier.
ANDREW:
That’s super huge on that side. Thanks. So, in terms of your clients, do they also have a Facebook page, as well as a YouTube channel, plus Instagram, having all the different social media channels to try and monetize?
NICK:
Yeah, almost all of them have a Facebook. I think, actually, all of them have a Facebook page. A couple of them have a YouTube channel, a personal trainer who I deal with does. But, YouTube depends on the niche for YouTube and if they’ve got someone because I don’t handle that for them. So, if they’ve got someone doing that if they want to handle that, but for me, I think Instagram, obviously, I’m a huge fan of Instagram.
I think it’s where people should be spending their money now or spending their time now to improve and prepare. Because of the growth Instagram recently and the shots. They’re taking YouTube with IGTV. And, the Snapchat with their stories. I just think it’s looking and set to be the biggest platform and really going to cover all bases that all these other social media have been doing for the last 5-10 years.
ANDREW:
Right. Right. So, they try and bring them all into one ecosystem I guess.
NICK:
I get it. Instagram is just, for me, the most appealing, you know, these photos and video. It’s just the most natural. I’m sort of not putting all my eggs on Instagram, but I do really think it’s going to be huge. All businesses need to be on Instagram really.
ANDREW:
With your clients, do you find different countries being more acceptable to monetization? I mean, is it like US, UK, stuff? Where do you see…
NICK:
Interesting question. I actually find the US the best customers to deal with. They’re very open to the idea. You know, for a lot of businesses here in the UK. They’re still very skeptical of Instagram and that it can even help their business, you know. They sort of just think they just post a picture once every few days and you know that’s good enough. They’re covering their base whereas there’s so much more to it, you know. There are fully-fledged campaigns which can really, you know, multiply your online income or position yourself as one of the big players in your type of niche.
ANDREW:
So, in terms of like your time, like when you’re working with clients, things like that, I mean, you know, if somebody wanted you with themselves, I mean, how much time do you think you need to put into your like Instagram account to really think this out and, you know, plan it, do the posting, coming up with the creative, and all that kind of stuff?
NICK:
There’s a lot of aspects that can probably feel quite overwhelming if you’re unsure where to start. I think there are a few bases to cover so content is key. Content will always be key on Instagram. It’s the thing that drives your reach. It’s the thing that shows off your profile, what people see when they’re looking at your business on Instagram. So, having good content, having a bank of content, maybe spend like, you know, a day just preparing a month’s worth of content, ricing out all the captions because the last thing that you want to be doing, which is something I realized very quickly when I was taking care of clients’ contents is doing the content on the day and having to do something every day, thinking of the caption, thinking of the hashtags.
You really want to prepare that as much as you can, whether it’s a week or two in advance, or even further, just to have that bank of pre-prepared photos or videos. And then, also being mindful of what stories could go well with it. When I do a post, for example, about a certain thing for a client, I also want to be wary of can I add a story for this as well. So, they sort of goes hand-in-hand. They might see the post or not see the post, they see the story and then see the post. And, these two things can sort of help each other if you’d like. But, yeah, once you get a swing of Instagram, you have a huge bank of content or maybe relevant hashtags to your niche, it just comes to a lot easier once you’re preparing for it. And, when doing it, really, you don’t have to spend much time so it’s second nature to you.
ANDREW:
And then, I guess the clients that they want us to promote a product or something like that. They’ll give it to you and you work that into like posts or things like that.
NICK:
Exactly. Quite a lot of people, quite a lot of clients will be tempted just to stick it on by themselves, post on both but it’s really not the idea thing because your followers are used to a certain way of things. And, if you just jumble that up, change that, it can displace the people and you know, there are certain ways to be doing this. So, they normally send it to me, ask me to work into whatever I’m doing within the next week. I’ll figure out the best way to post that and also the best story to go with that and just the whole angle to promote that if you’d like.
ANDREW:
There is definitely a thought process behind this whole thing and that’s, you know, that’s what people have to understand that this is just like, you know, willy-nilly throw it up there. You have to have the consistency to your photos, to your monetizing strategy, you know, it’s a thought. So, if you’re not really good at it, it’s like you hire the next to do this kind of stuff because it is, I mean, I’ve tried it. We’ve done it and it’s just like coming up with that month schedule and putting those in there, and then, getting images. And then, not only you have that, but you’ve got to find those followers. Maybe reach out and try to build that page to get followers to it. Then, you direct message them, and you know, it’s a lot of work. So, if you’re running your business day-to-day, well, good luck how you’re going to figure all that stuff in there.
NICK:
I mean, it’s like, you know, it’s not a natural process to be posting photos or to be engaging that people in the niche. I always see it as there are two aspects to Instagram. You’ve got the follower growth and getting new people in. And then, you’ve got the funnel side of your business. So, how are people, what happens to people when they do follow you?
They’ve been hit with these photos, stories, and however, you want to frame them, whatever you want to do for them. So, yeah, if you’re not used to it, it can be overwhelming. But, really, there’s a couple of things so for content, if you’re complete have no idea what you need to be posting, I would always look at competitors or people who are bigger than you on Instagram and just kind of mirror them. Don’t copy them exactly but mirror the titles, you know, from the bio to the picture to the content that they’re posting, to the stories. You can normally tell from a page that it’s doing really well. There will be certain themes that are recurring which you can mirror in a sense, and mold to your own business.
ANDREW:
Right. And, I know it is kind of a topic but like if you’re following these pages, and you see their followers, do you then go message out those followers and ask them, “Hey, I like your stuff. Come on over our stuff.” I mean it is kind of like going off where, I mean, I can turn it to monetization, but I don’t know if that’s the right way to build your page.
NICK:
In a sense, that’s monetization because you know these people are interested in your niche anyway. So, you’re getting a piece of that pie. That’s very true. And, what I do as, I actually started with a growth service for my clients, just purely just knowing that their pages with relevant followers. And, that’s exactly what I do. So, you look for competitors or big clients in a niche.
Basically, anyway, you knew that’s a source of interesting people for that business. And then, yet, follow them, like their pictures, comment on their pictures, even message them yet. Basically, get their attention because that’s all it takes, you know, they’ll get the notification on this photo. They want to see who liked this picture. They want to see who commented on their thing. And, that’s all it takes. If your profile looks nice and your content is good. They’ll click follow and then you’re there in your funnel.
ANDREW:
You can work with DMs and thanks. Here’s 10%. So, you monetize, right?
NICK:
They’re going to be clients for life because…
ANDREW:
Right. Right. Right. Well, there’s your secret, guys, you’ve got to go and do it. I’m just kidding. Nick, I know we’ve been talking quite a while. I know your busy guy. I want to ask you a couple of questions sort of like your tools that you would recommend to people, like your go-to tools that you kind of use on a daily basis.
NICK:
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, let me think, if I was a business owner, I was just starting out. I would find, let’s say, 5 to 10 pages which I thought a great to mirror off. I would basically look at their content and try and mimic that in my own way. In terms of tools, a great one for people, actually, if you don’t really… because there’s a lot more to hashtags than people think. People think I can post a picture of my dog and put hashtag dog. But, of course, the dog is such a competitive hashtag. It probably has 20 million posts.
If you’re posting that, they’ll get lost in the sea of hashtags and there’s no benefit to you. So, a really good website is displaypurposes.com. Basically, I think it’s .com, displaypurposes something. Let’s say you have a dog page, put the dog in and it will then give you a list of like related ones, other related ones, or let’s say you have a chihuahua page, you put chihuahua. They’ll have like the good hashtags to be used like a black chihuahua or chihuahua puppies. So, it’s sort of done for your hashtag research which I even charge for clients but a lot if you’re putting the time in, you can do that yourself with that website. So, that’s a really good one for people who aren’t sure of hashtags.
Apart from that, there’s a lot of iPhone apps to help you make really attractive content. Photoshop Express which is free on the iPhone’s great for like, instead of Instagram filters, which are very, you know, set. You can manage it yourself just using a couple of sliders and it can make your photo from like a five out of ten.
ANDREW:
Wow, that’s awesome. And then, in terms of like books or websites, or you know, how you keep current, what are you 3 top ones that you kind of follow on a daily basis, or weekly, monthly?
NICK:
As far as books go, I love the Russell Brunson books. I mean those are really good, you know. For our work, we’ve given us a bit which is great for me for productivity. It was awesome. Forums, there are a lot of forums for online marketing. So, I actually started with one called Black Hat World, which is kind of more of app installs like that. I don’t know how to explain a black hat work if you’d like. But yeah, if you just google Instagram, you’ll find ones that are just Instagram, you know. I would say become members of forums where there are similar people. If you’re a business owner look for Facebook groups. I love Facebook groups. There is some sort of value in Facebook groups. Just try to get in those circles which are relevant to you and your business. Just communicate with people and just find out what’s working probably for people.
ANDREW:
Cool. Awesome. So, now, if people have found this very engaging if they have. I have. Where can they find you and hire you for your services and get more information about you?
NICK:
Yeah, the best thing to do would be to hit me up on Facebook which is just facebook.com/nickmalak. I do have an Instagram which I’m growing, which is @nickmalak. I do use my website which is ownthegram.com. But, that only has the growth services on. So, hit me up on messenger. That’s normally the best idea because we can talk and actually, you know, most people don’t just need a quote service, or don’t just need a set service. Everybody’s different really. So, you know, you might think you need this, but you actually need this. You don’t need this. So, you just need a bit of direction. So, having a conversation, I’m always open to talk to people and give them some sort of help, or even email mailtonickgmalak@gmail.com, any of those channels.
ANDREW:
Awesome. Yeah, we’ll put this in the show notes, so you’ll get all that kind of stuff. Nick is really an awesome source. You can see he’s willing to share lots of stuff, got some really great ideas and definitely want to, you know, you guys should implement those things into your daily strategies if you’re not doing it now, or you know, call Nick. Hire Nick. He will help you if he’s got time. Cool. So, any other things, Nick? I mean I really appreciate the time and yeah, I look forward to meeting you and talking with you again at some point.
NICK:
Yeah, really great to talk to someone about all of this. I hope it’s been beneficial. I’m sure there’s an aspect to everyone that takes something away and implement or just try their own business, you know. It doesn’t have to be expertly done, you know. If you’re just trying things, just try them, and you’ll be able to tell what’s working or what’s not working. You don’t always need an expert to do it. Just get stuck in.
ANDREW:
Yeah. Cool. Awesome. Well, great. I appreciate the time and we’ll chat soon.
NICK:
Awesome. Thank you.
